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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift
Posted by: Michael Brandt
Date/Time: 31/08/10 13:04:00

The episode with Articulated buses has shown that they are not wholly practicable or successful to operate in London, nor is there ever likely to be the capital for the massive amount of infrastructure work which would make them more effective.
Apart from fare evasion, axle weight to road loadings exceed the tolerances of the below surface infastructure. Hence the high volume of burst mains and failures along the 25, 73 and 38 routes which had had the heaviest tonnage loadings for the majority of journeys.

Arctic buses are far more versatile than trams or trolleybuses but nowhere near as versatile as the old Routemaster was. That really could go almost anywhere with a full load. Light weight and low fuel consumption make that 1950's design to date unsurpassed.

Diesel Arctics are strangely, still replacing Trolleybus networks worldwide and the only tram networks now being developed are mostly really light rail routes that utilise existing  heavy rail branch line routes or share wide expanses of road or urban areas with bypass roads.

Here, the roads are too small and the envirions too developed.
This is exactly the scenario that led to the development of the tube.
Which is really the perfect and correct solution long term.

The tram was a pipe dream that would in an ideal situation be a perfect system.

Hard fact is,  it, as proposed, went way beyond the realms of practical reality  It could never work crammed into what is now a developed area the length of the route.

The damage caused by shoehorning the infrastucture in would never be repaired. The gains and benefits were never there. A bus support network would always be required and the limit on stops made the whole thing a complete farce.

The dismissal of the Trolleybus proposal as" impractical and too expensive" summed up the wholly political agenda of TfL as did the slanted surveys and the playing down of the traffic displacement north and south. ie. A  48-70% increase in South Ealing road traffic alone would be a disaster from every point of view.

Having lived in cities where there are tram networks, they are great, but only in a place where an extensive network exists. Networks can handle diversions, reversing triangles and turning loops and cover for the almost daily occurence of breakdowns, accidents and roadworks.  A single line route cannot and the published poor performance figures for urban single route trams is not good.

The Trolleybus is a better option. There is no reason why a double-deck 150 seat Trolleybus could not operate, reducing length by going upwards.
If a vehicle fails, it simply comes off the wires and others carry on around it.

Even better, Arnhem in Holland uses new hybrid trolleys which run on the wires in built up areas and switch to a diesel generator engine in the suburbs making it a go-anywhere vehicle.

TfL and it 's LRT predecessor, refused invites to visit the system poo-pooing it in one breath.


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 15:05:00 keith mason
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 15:30:00 George Knox
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 16:54:00 Alan Brainsby
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 16:48:00 Thomas Barry
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 18:37:00 Chris Veasey
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 17:04:00 Andy Jones
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 18:06:00 Peter Chadburn
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 18:49:00 Chris Veasey
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 19:07:00 Chris Veasey
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 21:25:00 Alan Brainsby
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme06/08/10 21:55:00 Chris Veasey
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 00:04:00 Alan Brainsby
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 06:14:00 Graham Weeks
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 06:53:00 Chris Veasey
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 09:34:00 Robin Taylor
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 09:53:00 Andy Jones
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 11:01:00 Chris Veasey
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 12:02:00 Robin Taylor
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 12:19:00 Chris Veasey
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 16:21:00 Jim Lawes
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 12:42:00 Parvez Haling
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 12:54:00 David Bradley
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 12:54:00 Chris Veasey
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 12:56:00 Jim Lawes
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 13:03:00 Chris Veasey
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 13:51:00 Andy Jones
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 14:50:00 Robin Taylor
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 15:04:00 Chris Veasey
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 15:14:00 J Smith
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 15:47:00 Chris Veasey
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 20:15:00 Parvez Haling
                                          re: 'you silly little person'08/08/10 20:22:00 G Lord
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:01:00 Andy Jones
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:25:00 Robin Taylor
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:05:00 David Bradley
                                                   The telephone poll09/08/10 15:29:00 Andy Jones
                                                      Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 09:13:00 Robin Taylor
                                                         Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 09:39:00 Chris Veasey
                                                            Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 11:18:00 Parvez Haling
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 12:03:00 Robin Taylor
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 12:32:00 Andy Jones
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 13:10:00 Chris Veasey
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 14:18:00 Parvez Haling
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 14:30:00 Andy Jones
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 14:34:00 David Bradley
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 16:22:00 Robin Taylor
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 12:37:00 David Bradley
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 12:20:00 David Bradley
                                                         Re:Re:The telephone poll10/08/10 09:54:00 Andy Jones
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:08:00 Chris Veasey
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:28:00 Robin Taylor
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:55:00 Chris Veasey
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:59:00 G Lord
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 15:24:00 David Bradley
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 15:41:00 Robin Taylor
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 18:12:00 David Bradley
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 19:03:00 Jim Lawes
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 19:55:00 J Smith
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 21:03:00 Alan Brainsby
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme07/08/10 21:37:00 Chris Veasey
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 14:31:00 G Lord
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 14:52:00 Chris Veasey
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 16:35:00 G Lord
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 16:40:00 J Smith
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 16:55:00 G Lord
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 17:05:00 Chris Veasey
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 17:26:00 J Smith
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 18:10:00 Chris Veasey
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 16:57:00 Chris Veasey
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 16:53:00 Chris Veasey
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 17:25:00 G Lord
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 17:45:00 Chris Veasey
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 18:20:00 G Lord
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 18:32:00 Chris Veasey
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:17:00 Marie Shelly
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 21:58:00 G Lord
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:17:00 Chris Veasey
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:19:00 David Bradley
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:29:00 G Lord
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:38:00 Chris Veasey
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:34:00 Chris Veasey
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:45:00 G Lord
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 06:50:00 Chris Veasey
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 22:10:00 Chris Veasey
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme08/08/10 23:21:00 Marie Shelly
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 06:49:00 Chris Veasey
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 11:47:00 George Knox
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 13:46:00 Chris Veasey
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 11:46:00 keith mason
      What about the Super Bus09/08/10 12:53:00 D Fox
         Re:What about the Super Bus09/08/10 14:40:00 Tom Brook
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 12:57:00 Chris Veasey
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 14:02:00 Parvez Haling
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 15:01:00 George Knox
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 15:05:00 Chris Veasey
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 16:11:00 keith mason
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 16:31:00 Chris Veasey
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 17:11:00 Parvez Haling
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 17:34:00 Chris Veasey
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 19:42:00 Alan Brainsby
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 23:03:00 Chris Veasey
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 20:39:00 Parvez Haling
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 19:28:00 George Knox
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme09/08/10 22:06:00 Chris Veasey
                     Re:Past their use-by date'09/08/10 23:47:00 Alan Brainsby
                        Re:Re:Past their use-by date'10/08/10 07:36:00 Chris Veasey
                           Re:Re:Re:Past their use-by date'10/08/10 14:03:00 Alan Brainsby
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 16:03:00 keith mason
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 16:18:00 David Bradley
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 16:23:00 Chris Veasey
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 16:19:00 Chris Veasey
         Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 16:36:00 Robin Taylor
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 17:46:00 David Bradley
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 18:11:00 Robin Taylor
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 19:22:00 David Bradley
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme10/08/10 20:04:00 George Knox
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme11/08/10 08:27:00 Chris Veasey
                           Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme11/08/10 12:08:00 George Knox
                              Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme11/08/10 22:53:00 Marie Shelly
                                 What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift12/08/10 23:43:00 Colin Izzard
                                    Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 13:21:00 J Smith
                                    Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 13:43:00 Thomas Barry
                                       Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 14:06:00 Parvez Haling
                                          Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 14:11:00 G Lord
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 14:16:00 J Smith
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 22:17:00 Chris Veasey
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift13/08/10 23:05:00 David Bradley
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 00:11:00 Alan Brainsby
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 08:43:00 Chris Veasey
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 11:12:00 Alan Brainsby
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 11:38:00 Chris Veasey
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 11:41:00 David Bradley
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift14/08/10 15:41:00 Alan Brainsby
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift31/08/10 01:53:00 John Chant
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift31/08/10 13:04:00 Michael Brandt
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift31/08/10 20:23:00 Oliver Gregan
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift31/08/10 20:58:00 Alan Brainsby
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift01/09/10 00:01:00 Peter Chadburn
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift01/09/10 08:38:00 Oliver Gregan
                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift01/09/10 11:23:00 Chris Veasey
                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift01/09/10 11:59:00 Peter Chadburn
                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:What is a modern trolleybus and improving modal shift01/09/10 12:35:00 Michael Brandt
                                                                                       Trams / Trolleybuses - a potential danger to the public?12/12/10 19:21:00 J Smith
                                                                                          Re:Trams / Trolleybuses - a potential danger to the public?12/12/10 20:29:00 Parvez Haling
                                                                                          Re:Trams / Trolleybuses - a potential danger to the public?12/12/10 21:31:00 Chris Veasey
   Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme04/09/10 12:04:00 Mark Maytree
      Re:Re:Time to reconsider the west london tram scheme12/12/10 22:00:00 J Smith

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