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Topic: Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit
Posted by: Andy Jones
Date/Time: 07/09/17 10:43:00

Graham, you have answer my question with a logical fallacy. Peter Shore was a decent man and believed that EU membership would hasten the end of our steel and coal industries. He may well have been right but being outside the EU would not have saved them. In the 21st century the idea that our government should have unfettered control over our industries is one that serves only to benefit those that seek to exercise that control and would represent a fundamental undermining of our liberty. You might resent the influence foreign governments have over the setting of standards and regulations in this country but their power is diluted and the total effect is minimal. A dogmatic socialist government seeking to run a command economy would have a far bigger negative impact on our lives - whatever you might claim you can't possibly agree with people advocating this.

Peter, I don't like to use the word 'lie' in the context of government decisions unless it is clear cut otherwise the word loses its power. I don't believe anybody lied to us back in 2004. A huge error was made in failing to predict the extent of immigration from Eastern Europe. The mistake was probably down to the civil service who would have been responsible for making the forecasts.

No place has 'suffered' from this error more than London Borough of Ealing which has the largest proportion of residents born in Eastern Europe and Polish now as its second language. This suffering appears to have been relatively mild the borough voted overwhelmingly for Remain and remember that this was a vote that EU citizens were excluded from so the level of support for Remain among residents is very understated.

I don't know exactly what Germany did to restrict immigration but the UK has not been exercising all the controls on EU immigration that it can do under EU rules. We effectively voted to take back control having already decided not to exercise the control that we had. The problem is that although party leadership had set targets for immigration the various ministries lobbied hard to be exempted from any further restrictions to protect their part of the economy. This will continue to happen after we leave the EU. It is likely you will find the only effective way of reducing immigration is to contract the economy.


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Brexit28/08/17 16:16:00 Graham Weeks
   Re:Brexit28/08/17 17:13:00 Andy Jones
      Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 02:27:00 Graham Weeks
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 10:21:00 Andy Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 10:52:00 Penelope Crocker
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 15:11:00 Graham Weeks
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 15:35:00 Penelope Crocker
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 15:43:00 Graham Weeks
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit29/08/17 18:55:00 Helena Cavanagh
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit05/09/17 08:23:00 Paul James
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit05/09/17 09:40:00 Graham Weeks
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit30/08/17 19:06:00 Libby Kemp
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit30/08/17 22:44:00 Graham Weeks
   Re:Brexit30/08/17 10:55:00 Peter Chadburn
      Re:Re:Brexit30/08/17 12:20:00 Andy Jones
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit30/08/17 12:37:00 Peter Chadburn
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 15:58:00 Andy Jones
   Re:Brexit30/08/17 22:30:00 Peter Yale
      Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 10:49:00 Penelope Crocker
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 14:17:00 Andy Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 14:37:00 Graham Weeks
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 15:06:00 Andy Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 20:01:00 Vlod Barchuk
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit01/09/17 09:44:00 Andy Jones
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit01/09/17 11:11:00 Vlod Barchuk
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit01/09/17 14:40:00 Andy Jones
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit01/09/17 16:30:00 Peter Chadburn
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit05/09/17 20:54:00 Vlod Barchuk
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 14:28:00 Graham Weeks
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit31/08/17 16:00:00 Peter Chadburn
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit01/09/17 09:57:00 Keith Iddon
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit03/09/17 09:09:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/09/17 06:16:00 Graham Weeks
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit09/09/17 17:34:00 Peter Yale
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/09/17 07:35:00 Keith Iddon
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/09/17 08:33:00 Andy Jones
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/09/17 14:33:00 Graham Weeks
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit05/09/17 06:17:00 Andy Jones
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit06/09/17 05:30:00 Graham Weeks
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit06/09/17 12:36:00 Peter Chadburn
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit07/09/17 10:43:00 Andy Jones
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit07/09/17 11:12:00 Peter Chadburn
   Re:Brexit01/09/17 09:58:00 Tony Wood
   Re:Brexit05/09/17 08:25:00 Paul James
   Re:Brexit07/09/17 15:05:00 Brian Conneller
      Re:Re:Brexit07/09/17 16:04:00 Penelope Crocker
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit08/09/17 16:02:00 Brian Conneller
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit08/09/17 18:13:00 Graham Weeks
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit11/09/17 08:18:00 Andy Jones
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit11/09/17 10:03:00 Penelope Crocker
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit12/09/17 08:36:00 Helena Cavanagh
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 08:10:00 Graham Weeks
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 09:30:00 Peter Chadburn
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 10:54:00 Keith Iddon
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 11:28:00 Graham Weeks
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 13:33:00 Peter Chadburn
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 13:56:00 Penelope Crocker
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 14:29:00 Keith Iddon
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 14:53:00 Penelope Crocker
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 15:02:00 Bob Little
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 15:05:00 Penelope Crocker
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit13/09/17 17:28:00 Keith Iddon
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit14/09/17 09:54:00 Brian Davis
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit14/09/17 11:38:00 Andy Jones
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit14/09/17 14:49:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit15/09/17 18:26:00 Vlod Barchuk
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 07:38:00 Andy Jones
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 09:34:00 Keith Iddon
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 10:46:00 Martin C. Harris
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 11:07:00 Graham Weeks
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 14:29:00 Keith Iddon
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 14:29:00 Keith Iddon
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit16/09/17 18:06:00 Vlod Barchuk
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit17/09/17 13:32:00 Andy Jones
                                                            Ever closer union?17/09/17 15:59:00 Keith Iddon
                                                               Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 09:28:00 Andy Jones
                                                                  Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 09:50:00 Keith Iddon
                                                                  Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 10:10:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 11:08:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 13:09:00 Keith Iddon
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 13:58:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?18/09/17 16:07:00 Paul Corcoran
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?19/09/17 08:38:00 Andy Jones
                                                                                 The debate in four views20/09/17 09:10:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                    Re:The debate in four views20/09/17 10:02:00 Lee Page
                                                                                       Re:Re:The debate in four views20/09/17 15:51:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?20/09/17 16:27:00 Vlod Barchuk
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?20/09/17 16:48:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ever closer union?21/09/17 10:21:00 Andy Jones
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/01/18 11:57:00 Judith Jaafar
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/01/18 12:09:00 Graham Weeks
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit04/01/18 12:14:00 Peter Chadburn
   Projections for 'No Deal'15/10/17 17:40:00 Andy Jones
      Re:Projections for 'No Deal'15/10/17 22:42:00 Philippa Bond
         Re:Re:Projections for 'No Deal'16/10/17 07:17:00 Andy Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Projections for 'No Deal'16/10/17 09:27:00 Penelope Crocker
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Projections for 'No Deal'16/10/17 17:39:00 Philippa Bond
   Re:Brexit19/10/17 10:17:00 Nick Foote
      Re:Re:Brexit19/10/17 21:24:00 Susan Rowe
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit20/10/17 20:25:00 Andy Jones
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit21/10/17 09:48:00 Helena Cavanagh
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 08:21:00 Graham Weeks
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 08:50:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 09:46:00 Penelope Crocker
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 15:44:00 Graham Weeks
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 12:29:00 Graham Weeks
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 15:00:00 Andy Jones
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit02/11/17 16:04:00 Graham Weeks
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit03/11/17 11:00:00 Helena Cavanagh
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit03/11/17 12:25:00 Penelope Crocker
                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit17/11/17 06:08:00 Graham Weeks
                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit17/11/17 06:10:00 Graham Weeks
                                          Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 06:11:00 Graham Weeks
                                             Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 07:14:00 Keith Iddon
                                                Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 07:47:00 Graham Weeks
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 08:10:00 Keith Iddon
                                                Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 16:26:00 Paul James
                                             Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 16:25:00 Paul James
                                                Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club17/11/17 16:48:00 Keith Iddon
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club20/11/17 09:41:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club20/11/17 09:56:00 Graham Weeks
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit at the golf club20/11/17 17:37:00 Andy Jones
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 24/11/17 16:57:00 Graham Weeks
                                                               Why is EU Immigration Rising?29/11/17 07:53:00 Andy Jones
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 05/12/17 16:49:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 06/12/17 11:25:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 06/12/17 12:52:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 06/12/17 13:42:00 Andy Jones
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 06/12/17 14:58:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 07/12/17 09:21:00 Andy Jones
                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 08/12/17 20:56:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 08/12/17 22:08:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 09/12/17 05:05:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 10/12/17 04:25:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 11/12/17 21:18:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 11/12/17 22:28:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 12/12/17 05:22:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 12/12/17 21:14:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit 13/12/17 08:26:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                            Re: Brexit 14/12/17 16:33:00 Susan Rowe
                                                                                                               Re:Re: Brexit 14/12/17 16:47:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                                  Re:Re:Re: Brexit 14/12/17 17:00:00 Leslie Bailey
                                                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 14/12/17 17:23:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 14/12/17 18:24:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 29/12/17 10:48:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 29/12/17 15:23:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 12/01/18 12:58:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 12/01/18 13:06:00 Peter Chadburn
                                                                                                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 12/01/18 13:18:00 Penelope Crocker
                                                                                                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 12/01/18 14:28:00 Graham Weeks
                                                                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 12/01/18 15:05:00 Peter Chadburn
                                                                                                                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re: Brexit 22/01/18 13:57:00 Graham Weeks
   Re:Brexit17/03/18 08:14:00 Graham Weeks
      Re:Re:Brexit17/03/18 19:33:00 Graham Weeks
         Re:Re:Re:Brexit18/03/18 12:06:00 Philippa Bond
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit18/03/18 13:32:00 Andy Jones
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit19/03/18 08:02:00 Graham Weeks
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Brexit19/03/18 17:41:00 Peter Chadburn

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