Forum Message

Topic: Reply
Posted by: Gordon Southwell
Date/Time: 25/04/21 08:46:00

Paul, I'm genuinely sorry that you have been subjected to a line of questioning that seems motivated by personal animosity and a desire to make petty points rather than intending to have a rational debate about this important issue.

The matter you raised in your original post is the key question here. While I agreed with you the headline of the article was made more appropriate by being qualified to show that 'massive support' was shown by the number of respondents, I never accepted in its original form it was extremely misleading as you claim because it seems to me the survey is an accurate reflection of the views of LTN21 residents.

I know I have raised this same point a number of times but you have never addressed it. It is hard for you to totally reject the CAMTAG survey given that its results show exactly the same breakdown of opposition that the council's Commonplace consultation did.

As far as I am aware these are the only two comprehensive surveys of what Ealing residents feel about the council's traffic measures. There is also a wide range of anecdotal evidence that suggests a high level of opposition. Whether you believe there were 1,000 or 5,000 at the march yesterday that is a lot of people.

Better Ealing Streets refer to other surveys which show support for LTNs in their response to the march. They fail to mention that these are London wide surveys. Of course most people support the concept of LTNs, I certainly do and believe they will become increasingly important but it is preposterous to ignore the much more representative local surveys. In calling the news report 'extremely misleading' you have set a high bar for accuracy but you then need to be consistent and not just hold information you disagree with to impossibly high standards. The facts seem to point very adamantly to there being a high level of opposition to the LTNs in Ealing and it is Better Ealing Streets who are distorting the issue in my view.

If you have an explanation as to why the CAMTAG and Commonplace surveys have got it so wrong it would be interesting to hear but a minority view that claims to represent a silent majority is always deluded. As far as I can see any disinterested observer will conclude opposition to LTNs in Ealing is massive.

If you and Better Ealing Streets persist in the claim that these schemes are popular with residents you will be doing immense damage to the cause of sustainable travel and safer streets in Ealing. I absolutely believe that strenuous efforts should be made to encourage walking and cycling but I see no strong evidence that unnecessary private car journeys that could easily be switched to walking and cycling make up a very large proportion of vehicle journeys on our roads. Even if  we are successful encouraging some modal shift this is going to be outweighed by the significant population growth that the borough is about to experience. It would be a grave error to think that 'car free' developments mean that the residents won't generate extra vehicle movements.

If I am correct this actually strengthens the case for LTNs but you need to bear in mind that the current processes which use Experimental Traffic Orders and minimal road modelling will be gone quite shortly. Maybe even in weeks if the Gove coup against Boris Johnson is successful. Although this will mean it will take longer to introduce LTNs, they will be better conceived and much more likely to achieve their aim. The problem will emerge that, because you and Ealing Council have told people that black is white and LTNs are popular, there will be a significant legacy of mistrust about the concept and it will become much harder to implement even the best conceived schemes.

You and Better Ealing Streets are damaging your credibility by the quixotic insistence that LTNs are popular in Ealing in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It would be far better if you were to recognise initially that the CAMTAG survey showed that there were parts of the LTN21 scheme that did have a significant amount of resident support and working to ensure these were retained. Your all or nothing approach means that it is more likely that there will be a clean sweep of the measures instituted by the end of the year with nothing kept and a legacy of resident suspicion over any new measures put forward. 





Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 18:53:00 Paul James
   Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 19:28:00 Simon Hayes
      Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 19:31:00 Paul James
   Reply21/04/21 19:31:00 Gordon Southwell
      Re:Reply21/04/21 19:52:00 Simon Hayes
   Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:04:00 Peter Yale
      Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:12:00 Paul James
         Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:14:00 Simon Hayes
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:17:00 N V Brooks
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:19:00 Paul James
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:25:00 Peter Yale
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:30:00 N V Brooks
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:33:00 Simon Hayes
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:54:00 N V Brooks
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday21/04/21 20:57:00 Simon Hayes
                              Reply21/04/21 21:43:00 Gordon Southwell
                                 Re:Reply21/04/21 22:15:00 N V Brooks
                                    Re:Re:Reply21/04/21 23:15:00 Simon Hayes
                                       Re:Re:Re:Reply21/04/21 23:28:00 Colin Goodman
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 07:16:00 Mark Evans
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 09:03:00 Simon Hayes
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 09:31:00 Mark Evans
                                       Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 09:45:00 Paul James
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 09:48:00 Simon Hayes
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 10:15:00 Keith Iddon
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 13:07:00 Kevin Wilson
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 13:11:00 N V Brooks
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 10:21:00 Paul James
                                                Reply22/04/21 10:32:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                   Re:Reply22/04/21 11:29:00 Paul James
                                                      Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 11:39:00 N V Brooks
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 12:00:00 Paul James
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 14:56:00 N V Brooks
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 11:46:00 Paul James
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:06:00 N V Brooks
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:14:00 Paul James
                                                                        Reply23/04/21 12:26:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:39:00 N V Brooks
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:43:00 Paul James
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:51:00 N V Brooks
                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 13:00:00 Paul James
                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 13:02:00 N V Brooks
                                                                                       Reply23/04/21 14:14:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Reply30/04/21 19:05:00 Philippa Bond
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply01/05/21 14:50:00 N V Brooks
                                                      Reply22/04/21 12:02:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 13:22:00 Simon Hayes
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 13:38:00 Paul James
                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 13:47:00 Simon Hayes
                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 07:34:00 Paul James
                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 07:53:00 Simon Hayes
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 08:20:00 Mark Evans
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 08:27:00 Simon Hayes
                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 09:19:00 Paul James
                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 10:10:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 11:23:00 Paul James
                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 11:48:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:07:00 Paul James
                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:34:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:47:00 Paul James
                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 12:57:00 N V Brooks
                                                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply23/04/21 14:09:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply24/04/21 08:10:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                                                                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply24/04/21 08:36:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply24/04/21 09:21:00 Paul James
                                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply24/04/21 09:22:00 Paul James
                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply24/04/21 09:49:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply25/04/21 07:35:00 Paul James
                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply25/04/21 07:50:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                            Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply25/04/21 08:11:00 Paul James
                                                                                                               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply25/04/21 08:45:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                         Reply25/04/21 08:46:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                                                                            Re:Reply26/04/21 12:09:00 Paul James
                                                                                                               Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 12:55:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                  Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 13:34:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 14:50:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 15:10:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 15:17:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 15:22:00 Rosco White
                                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 15:36:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 16:49:00 Rosco White
                                                                                                               Reply26/04/21 15:51:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                                                                                  Re:Reply26/04/21 16:07:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                                                                                                                  Re:Reply26/04/21 17:15:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                     Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 17:24:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                     Reply26/04/21 17:42:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                                                                                        Re:Reply27/04/21 09:49:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                           Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 10:10:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                              Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 10:21:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 10:57:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                           Reply27/04/21 12:44:00 Gordon Southwell
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 13:41:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 13:44:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 13:46:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 13:56:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 14:00:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 14:02:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                 Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 16:53:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
                                                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 17:58:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                              Re:Reply27/04/21 14:04:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                 Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 15:07:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                                    Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 16:11:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                       Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 16:12:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 16:54:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 17:05:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 17:18:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 21:33:00 Rosco White
                                                                                                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 22:37:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 23:16:00 Rosco White
                                                                                                                                                      Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply28/04/21 12:11:00 Paul James
                                                                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply28/04/21 12:17:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                                                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply28/04/21 22:44:00 Rosco White
                                                                                                                     Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 17:47:00 Simon Hayes
                                                                                                                        Re:Re:Re:Reply27/04/21 10:42:00 Paul James
                                                                                                            Re:Reply26/04/21 15:38:00 Paul James
                                                                                                               Re:Re:Reply26/04/21 16:28:00 Simon Hayes
   Re:Extremely Misleading News Headline on EalingToday22/04/21 12:06:00 Paul James
      Reply22/04/21 12:19:00 Gordon Southwell
         Re:Reply22/04/21 12:35:00 Peter Chadburn
            Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 13:00:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
               Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 14:59:00 N V Brooks
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 16:16:00 Simon Hayes
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 16:24:00 Mark Evans
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply22/04/21 16:41:00 Simon Hayes
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Reply25/04/21 17:51:00 Mark Evans
                              Re: Bel and LTNs27/04/21 22:32:00 Leslie Bailey
   Reply28/04/21 15:50:00 Christine Mulligan
      Come on Paul James!28/04/21 19:08:00 Simon Hayes
         Re:Come on Paul James!29/04/21 07:55:00 Tricia Arbuthnot
            Re:Re:Come on Paul James!29/04/21 11:18:00 N V Brooks
               Re:Re:Re:Come on Paul James!29/04/21 13:47:00 Rosco White
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Come on Paul James!29/04/21 15:19:00 Simon Hayes
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Come on Paul James!29/04/21 17:54:00 Rosco White
                        Re:Come on Paul James!30/04/21 14:08:00 Simon Hayes

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